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#1 MrLlamaLlama

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 01:58 PM

Yeah, a serious debate.

I completely fail to see why more companies aren't investing in hydrogen powered vehicles. OK, maybe the economic climate isn't great right now, and they're all going bust left right and centre. But it won't stop them making hybrid vehicles, oh no.

Hybrid vehicles are stupid. They use, primarily, a diesel engine, that has a decent MPG, say 40ish. But, at lower speeds and rev ranges, they use an electric motor, which is charged when the engine is running. The problem with this being, that the electric motor is still ultimately powered by oil. Oil is a fossil fuel, and they're just evil. (According to the government). We are forever told to be eco friendly and plant trees and save squirrels and turn off the lights and so on, so why won't one of the largest users of fossil fuels follow the same advice?

To clarify at this point, I'm not on about climate change, I don't think it's too much of an issue right now. But I do think using up natural resources is.

Honda have already created the FCX Clarity. It's hydrogen powered, costs the same as a normal family car, has 5 seats, all the same safety features and mod cons you expect, and runs on concentrated hydrogen. Concentrated hydrogen costs about the same to synthesize as petrol or diesel, but is far, far cleaner.
You put hydrogen into your car, it combines with oxygen, some science happens, your car moves along (at the same respectable speeds as a normal family car today) and all that comes out your exhaust pipe is water. Water, which contains hydrogen, which can be collected and concentrated and put into your car again. Hydrogen is also one of, if not the the most abundant substance in the universe (as we know it).

So why, oh why, oh why aren't more companies pressured to produce these technologies, Honda have already done it, and I'm sure the companies wouldn't mind either paying Honda, or for the research themselves if it gave them a good image.


Hipocrisy pisses me off, hugely. Discuss.

Honda FCX Clarity for anyone who wants to know anything else.

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#2 Mpilk901

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 02:59 PM

Hydrogen is not exactly widely available, supplies of natural gas are becoming harder to obtain. Also a hydrogen car will not be able to travel as far on a tank of fuel as a gasoline powered car, so you would need to fill up more often. It takes more energy to make Hydrogen than you get from it. Not to mention that the technology to produce, store, and transport hydrogen power at a decent cost is not yet available and will not likely be for a long while.

Maybe in the future, but for the meantime it doesn't seem like much of a possibility mainly because it is hard to get.

Edit: Just looked it up on wikipedia and found this:

On May 2009 the U.S. Secretary of Energy Stephen Chu announced that since fuel cell hydrogen vehicles "will not be practical over the next 10 to 20 years", the U.S. government will "cut off funds" for development of hydrogen vehicles, although the DoE will continue to fund research related to stationary fuel cells. The difficulties in the development of the required infrastructure to distribute hydrogen was also mentioned as a justification for cutting research funds.


Edited by Mpilk901, 09 July 2009 - 03:01 PM.

Nothing to see here, move along


#3 Damjan

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 03:31 PM

I think an alcohol powered vehicle would be much better, it's easier to obtain, and if something's left, you can finish it off yourself.

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#4 Spider-Vice

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 04:38 PM

If you ever watch American Chopper or whatever, you'll see they actually made the first motorbike that uses ethanol instead of gas.

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#5 _Ray

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 06:19 PM

But Hydrogen Fuel Cells are not the way to go. BMW has invested in a hydrogen powered internal combustion engine, which instead of using Hydrogen and Oxygen to create electricity for an electric motor, it actually sucks H2 and O2 into the engine, sparks it, KABOOM!!! Your piston gets pushed down, turns the crank, then the tranny, then the axle, then, by golly, THE WHEELS!!!!

They have much better efficiency (Hydrogen used compared to the power) plus you still get the fun sound of an internal-combustion engine. :) (It releases only water for those of you wondering)

http://www.bmwusa.co...b2-73f10fc5b9ad

Edited by Raybob, 09 July 2009 - 06:30 PM.

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#6 Spaz The Great

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 08:49 PM

I'm all about the ethanol engines, myself. Alcohol is not hard to obtain, or produce. So... Yeah. Fuck your hydrogen.

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#7 MrLlamaLlama

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 09:44 PM

Hydrogen is not exactly widely available.


Take a deep breath. Bingo. And as for filling up more often, would filling up on something that will never run out be much more of an inconvenience than filling up on something that will eventually run out? You do have a point about transportation, but managed to bring up the point that i'm getting at. The government telling us to do all the eco-work, but not investing themselves.

BMW has invested in a hydrogen powered internal combustion engine, which instead of using Hydrogen and Oxygen to create electricity for an electric motor, it actually sucks H2 and O2 into the engine, sparks it, KABOOM!!! Your piston gets pushed down, turns the crank, then the tranny, then the axle, then, by golly, THE WHEELS!!!!


Just like how a normal engine works? Also, powered by hydrogen, so undermining my argument that's pro-hydrogen by giving a pro-hydrogen argument is a pathetic excersize, but well done for trying, k? I wasn't talking about H2o Fuel cells, just a renewable hydrogen solution.

I think an alcohol powered vehicle would be much better, it's easier to obtain, and if something's left, you can finish it off yourself.


And promptly die. Yay.


The whole thing about ethanol engines is that it seems to be far too volatile in the concentrations needed to use it as a fuel, hence why it's used in top fuel drag cars?

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#8 Mpilk901

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 10:39 PM

Hydrogen is not exactly widely available.


Take a deep breath. Bingo. And as for filling up more often, would filling up on something that will never run out be much more of an inconvenience than filling up on something that will eventually run out? You do have a point about transportation, but managed to bring up the point that i'm getting at. The government telling us to do all the eco-work, but not investing themselves.

Mixed with CO2 and O2? A hydrogen car needs pure hydrogen and there are only a few ways of getting it. An example is through electrolysis. However, you only get limited amounts of it through this process and is certainly not enough to power a whole world's automobiles.

To your point about having to fill up more often; it costs the same to fill a tank with hydrogen as it does to fill a tank with petrol. But because you have to fill up more often it costs more to run a hydrogen vehicle rather than a petrol vehicle which probably would put off customers and the manufacturers.

Nothing to see here, move along


#9 MrLlamaLlama

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 10:55 PM

Hydrogen is not exactly widely available.


Take a deep breath. Bingo. And as for filling up more often, would filling up on something that will never run out be much more of an inconvenience than filling up on something that will eventually run out? You do have a point about transportation, but managed to bring up the point that i'm getting at. The government telling us to do all the eco-work, but not investing themselves.

Mixed with CO2 and O2? A hydrogen car needs pure hydrogen and there are only a few ways of getting it. An example is through electrolysis. However, you only get limited amounts of it through this process and is certainly not enough to power a whole world's automobiles.

To your point about having to fill up more often; it costs the same to fill a tank with hydrogen as it does to fill a tank with petrol. But because you have to fill up more often it costs more to run a hydrogen vehicle rather than a petrol vehicle which probably would put off customers and the manufacturers.



I was making the point that hydrogen is far more abundant than crude oil. The process of hydrolysis is probably no more expensive than refining (though I do understand that petrol is a bi product of various other industries)

Also, yes, having to fill up more often is an issue... One that is counterbalanced, i believe, by the costs that are incurred by changing of engine components, oil, all that stuff. Cars will be far cheaper to MOT, with computer diagnostics, so you can't be 'had' by garages looking to make a quick few out of you. In the long term, it's probably as near as balanced.

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#10 WRX22B1998

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Posted 10 July 2009 - 12:17 AM

Hydrogen is not exactly widely available


its the most abundant element on earth...if that's not widely available enough i dunno what is.

yeah prius etc makes no sense. a friend was telling me that by the time they make one of those, all the energy put into making it is worth like 4 years of driving a land rover in carbon emissions. (shipping batteries from overseas, all the special parts etc)

#11 Spaz The Great

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Posted 10 July 2009 - 01:06 AM

Hydrogen is not exactly widely available.


Take a deep breath. Bingo. And as for filling up more often, would filling up on something that will never run out be much more of an inconvenience than filling up on something that will eventually run out? You do have a point about transportation, but managed to bring up the point that i'm getting at. The government telling us to do all the eco-work, but not investing themselves.

Mixed with CO2 and O2? A hydrogen car needs pure hydrogen and there are only a few ways of getting it. An example is through electrolysis. However, you only get limited amounts of it through this process and is certainly not enough to power a whole world's automobiles.

To your point about having to fill up more often; it costs the same to fill a tank with hydrogen as it does to fill a tank with petrol. But because you have to fill up more often it costs more to run a hydrogen vehicle rather than a petrol vehicle which probably would put off customers and the manufacturers.


Okay... So we spend more money in order to drive. Big deal. Guess what that means? MORE MONEY IN CIRCULATION. It's called economy, and as a world we're facing a crisis. People don't understand that spending less isn't the answer in a recession, it only worsens it.

And guess what else? All this money that will be made off it((because by your logic, they will make more money than they do now, because people will be filling up more often for the same price)) can be turned around to make hydrogen easier to obtain. That's how progression works.

We're already billions of dollars in debt here in America, we might as well give it a shot in the dark and jump for it. We can't really do much more damage.

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#12 _Ray

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Posted 10 July 2009 - 01:30 AM

I'm all about the ethanol engines, myself. Alcohol is not hard to obtain, or produce. So... Yeah. Fuck your hydrogen.


Tapping into our food supply when there's millions of people starving in the world, eh? :bashhead:

The whole thing about ethanol engines is that it seems to be far too volatile in the concentrations needed to use it as a fuel, hence why it's used in top fuel drag cars?


They run on Nitromethane. Alcohol is used for the lower level cars.

Hydrogen is not exactly widely available


its the most abundant element on earth...if that's not widely available enough i dunno what is.

yeah prius etc makes no sense. a friend was telling me that by the time they make one of those, all the energy put into making it is worth like 4 years of driving a land rover in carbon emissions. (shipping batteries from overseas, all the special parts etc)


Lol, hydrogen the most abundant??

Nitrogen, Oxygen, and Water are the most abundant above the surface. Actually, there is very little hydrogen on the Earth, but they produce it from water, natural gas, etc.

Hydrogen is not exactly widely available.


Take a deep breath. Bingo. And as for filling up more often, would filling up on something that will never run out be much more of an inconvenience than filling up on something that will eventually run out? You do have a point about transportation, but managed to bring up the point that i'm getting at. The government telling us to do all the eco-work, but not investing themselves.

Mixed with CO2 and O2? A hydrogen car needs pure hydrogen and there are only a few ways of getting it. An example is through electrolysis. However, you only get limited amounts of it through this process and is certainly not enough to power a whole world's automobiles.

To your point about having to fill up more often; it costs the same to fill a tank with hydrogen as it does to fill a tank with petrol. But because you have to fill up more often it costs more to run a hydrogen vehicle rather than a petrol vehicle which probably would put off customers and the manufacturers.


Okay... So we spend more money in order to drive. Big deal. Guess what that means? MORE MONEY IN CIRCULATION. It's called economy, and as a world we're facing a crisis. People don't understand that spending less isn't the answer in a recession, it only worsens it.

And guess what else? All this money that will be made off it((because by your logic, they will make more money than they do now, because people will be filling up more often for the same price)) can be turned around to make hydrogen easier to obtain. That's how progression works.

We're already billions of dollars in debt here in America, we might as well give it a shot in the dark and jump for it. We can't really do much more damage.


So if I have 200k of credit card debt, going on a shopping spree is the right thing to do? You're beginning to sound like Obama.....

Edited by Raybob, 10 July 2009 - 01:27 AM.

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#13 WRX22B1998

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Posted 10 July 2009 - 01:32 AM

ehemm...

The most abundant element in the universe is hydrogen, which makes up about 3/4 of all matter! Helium makes up most of the remaining 25%. Oxygen is the third most abundant element in the universe. All of the other elements are relatively rare.


kthx

#14 _Ray

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Posted 10 July 2009 - 01:43 AM

its the most abundant element on earth...if that's not widely available enough i dunno what is.


Yeah, thanks. :)

WRX22B1998 = :bashhead:
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#15 WRX22B1998

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Posted 10 July 2009 - 01:51 AM

intergalactic travel is necessary for hydrogen cars OBVIOUSLY god. anyone with half a brain would've figured that out :bleh:

Edited by WRX22B1998, 10 July 2009 - 01:52 AM.


#16 _Ray

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Posted 10 July 2009 - 02:11 AM

intergalactic travel is necessary for hydrogen cars OBVIOUSLY god. anyone with half a brain would've figured that out :bleh:


Okay..... ^_^
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#17 Spaz The Great

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Posted 10 July 2009 - 05:03 AM

So if I have 200k of credit card debt, going on a shopping spree is the right thing to do? You're beginning to sound like Obama.....


No, because you aren't an economy. You're a person. And you're talking about debt, not recession. Those are not interchangeable words. With a recession, if everyone freaks out and stops spending money, businesses make less money, fire more people, less money is spent, less money is made. Endless cycle. It's a horrible knee-jerk reaction.

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#18 Mpilk901

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Posted 10 July 2009 - 07:15 AM

I was making the point that hydrogen is far more abundant than crude oil. The process of hydrolysis is probably no more expensive than refining (though I do understand that petrol is a bi product of various other industries)

Yes, but the large amount of energy required to isolate hydrogen from natural compounds (water, natural gas, biomass), then package the gas by compression or liquefaction then transfer the energy carrier to the user leaves around 25% for practical use. This isn't exactly an acceptable value to run an economy in a sustainable future. Sure, they could research into easier methods of acquiring Hydrogen but the reasons I'm giving to you now are why we aren't doing it. Countries don't want to fully depend their automobiles on a source of energy which is wasteful to obtain and would rather wait until these 'easier methods' have been discovered. Refer to my first post.


We're already billions of dollars in debt here in America, we might as well give it a shot in the dark and jump for it. We can't really do much more damage.

America already made their decision. Refer to the quote in my first post.

Just to say something. I'm not saying that it's a bad idea (I'm all for looking for new ways to power our vehicles), it's just that at the current moment it is not the greatest source of energy to depend upon. Plus seeing as some countries have even cut off funds for the development of hydrogen vehicles, that makes some of the vehicle companies put off the idea of making hydrogen vehicles.

Nothing to see here, move along


#19 Urbanoutlaw

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Posted 10 July 2009 - 10:15 AM

Hydrogen looks good on paper, it just has to get past the whole "Hindenburg" stigma.

Okay, a couple clarifications about ethanol.

1) Ethanol = Grain Alcohol, like whiskey etc. Methanol = Wood alcohol, such as poisonous rubbing alcohol.

2) If ethanol cuts into the food supply, then why is there a farm subsidy (US) where farmers are paid NOT to grow.

3) Nobody talks about the single byproduct of ethanol production, Dried Distiller's Grain. (Go ahead, google it.) For those
who can't be bothered to look it up, DDG is health food for livestock. Another way to look at it is ethanol is the byproduct
of making DDG.

The only people ethanol (& bio-diesel) hurt are OPEC.

On the subject of hybrids? Here you go -

http://www.inhabitat...incvolt-hybrid/

Hey Spaz, grab some road munchies & let's roll (car is reputed to cruise at 80 MPH & have a top speed around 160 while
getting near 100 MPG).

Edited by Urbanoutlaw, 10 July 2009 - 10:17 AM.

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#20 Spaz The Great

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Posted 11 July 2009 - 10:31 AM

On the subject of hybrids? Here you go -

http://www.inhabitat...incvolt-hybrid/

Hey Spaz, grab some road munchies & let's roll (car is reputed to cruise at 80 MPH & have a top speed around 160 while
getting near 100 MPG).


Oh that shit is definitely on. I don't even care if you drive. I just need some Dew, chips((any kind that isn't gross work, I'm not that picky)), and a pack of smokes, preferrably Djarum Blacks or Golds.

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