Wouldn't it be easier / better to focus on a single game? The one that matters? And not the one that barely sold as many copies as LA Noire? Just sayin'.

Wouldn't it be easier / better to focus on a single game? The one that matters? And not the one that barely sold as many copies as LA Noire? Just sayin'.

Wouldn't it be better if they supported more than one game?

Anyway, the fact that vehicle importing in Max is now possible makes me excited.

But Tuner, GTA4 is terrible. It's a scourge upon the gaming community and I perpetually take the inefficiency of it's port as a personal insult each and every one of my waking moments. Not only this, but it's a feeling so vehement that I need to vocalise it constantly; frankly if the fact that they're not supporting Max Payne 3 means their program contains a lower concentration of ANYTHING to do with that rotting pile of shite GTA4 then I'm a happy fuckin' bunny.

Wouldn't it be easier / better to focus on a single game? The one that matters? And not the one that barely sold as many copies as LA Noire? Just sayin'.

Wouldn't it be better if they supported more than one game?

Anyway, the fact that vehicle importing in Max is now possible makes me excited.

The Modding by dedicated HARD CORE enthusiasts have sought to overhaul all the GTAs using the RAGE engine, if not Euphoria. That's a tall order by anyone's standard, you have to respect those guys! Even Rockstar was tipping their hat to them, but they just won't come out on what PC gaming means exactly to Rockstar North or Rockstar Games, and I'd agree with Tuner in the sense that it's very frustrating, but the basic underlying point I'm also trying to make is that designing a game for more then one system is also as tall an order, and expected to get it right without errors, that's doubly difficult! The companies making PC hardware want EVERYONE if not MOST people to buy THEIR product, this is what makes catering to more then one a difficult task, all in one or three discs you buy as the end product!

To do multiplatform game software is not something that happens overnight, and using tech developed in 2005 also shows why it's taking 5 years or more to make a game as vastly improved as GTA 5 is looking to be

I do believe it's not breaking any tech barriers for Xbox360 for example, but it will be pushing Rockstar's own compression artists to new heights!
Just to have the wherewithal for the modding on it's own without outside help from any big company with their software expertise is admirable in my mind.

BTW, I have played both PC and console for GTA IV and Episodes, and EPISODES from LIBERTY CITY is the more challenging PC offering, GTA IV's original PC release has run much better on my admittedly dated PC hardware

The Modding by dedicated HARD CORE enthusiasts have sought to overhaul all the GTAs using the RAGE engine, if not Euphoria. That's a tall order by anyone's standard, you have to respect those guys! Even Rockstar was tipping their hat to them, but they just won't come out on what PC gaming means exactly to Rockstar North or Rockstar Games, and I'd agree with Tuner in the sense that it's very frustrating, but the basic underlying point I'm also trying to make is that designing a game for more then one system is also as tall an order, and expected to get it right without errors, that's doubly difficult! The companies making PC hardware want EVERYONE if not MOST people to buy THEIR product, this is what makes catering to more then one a difficult task, all in one or three discs you buy as the end product!

To do multiplatform game software is not something that happens overnight, and using tech developed in 2005 also shows why it's taking 5 years or more to make a game as vastly improved as GTA 5 is looking to be

I do believe it's not breaking any tech barriers for Xbox360 for example, but it will be pushing Rockstar's own compression artists to new heights!
Just to have the wherewithal for the modding on it's own without outside help from any big company with their software expertise is admirable in my mind.

BTW, I have played both PC and console for GTA IV and Episodes, and EPISODES from LIBERTY CITY is the more challenging PC offering, GTA IV's original PC release has run much better on my admittedly dated PC hardware

You seem to have an awful lot of that first hand kind of knowledge about about Rockstar and the development of their games. Let me guess, one of your family members works for Rockstar? Oh or maybe you know someone who knows someone who is the second cousin of someone who is best friends with the Housers? Which is it?

I'd have asked if you work for Rockstar, but with that English I can't even be sarcastic about it...

But Tuner, GTA4 is terrible. It's a scourge upon the gaming community and I perpetually take the inefficiency of it's port as a personal insult each and every one of my waking moments. Not only this, but it's a feeling so vehement that I need to vocalise it constantly; frankly if the fact that they're not supporting Max Payne 3 means their program contains a lower concentration of ANYTHING to do with that rotting pile of shite GTA4 then I'm a happy fuckin' bunny.

You said it. But at least it doesn't take up 15 fucking' gigabytes with stupid CGI cutscenes. Anyway glad I'm not the only one who doesn't buy into Rockstar's bullshit (even if I'm the only one who means it).

Wouldn't it be better if they supported more than one game?

If that game has about as much modding potential as a 40 year old Trabant, no.

As I said, 10 years worshipping Grand Theft Auto, believe me when I tell you, I collected the tidbits of WORTHY info over that time frame. I don't work for them, and I certainly don't presume TOO much, but the facts of game development and software in general isn't outside a certain norm for all involved in the creation as they operate in the same market. Just give it some thought, do some Googling, you'll see what I'm driving at

As I said, 10 years worshipping Grand Theft Auto...

I'll be sure to shove this in your face the next time you deny being a fanboy.

I'm no fanboy, as I've said at GTAForums 6 years ago, I started that generation on Sony Playstation and that exclusive platform didn't last anyway, add to that my Sony PS3 was not kind to running GTA 4, so in frustration I adopted my Xbox with RROD aplenty sooner then I would have, I needed my GTA 4 fix, and unlike you, I'm happy with it, despite the shortcomings, they don't out-weigh how good the last GTA was in all.
Episodes should have had more then two outings and believe me, again based on what Rockstar had said, it was not set as just two initially, it just happened that they moved away from 4 to focus on the next GTA, and RDR as in the case of Max Payne got the focus of main attention

As I said, 10 years worshipping Grand Theft Auto...

Since Vice City I've been a GTA fanatic, you see a problem with that? GTA IV just has that bit more spit and polish on the franchise, it came out with a lot lacking as many have complained and know, however, what's right about it makes it a fun game to revisit and play over, which I have a number of times, same as UNCHARTED, it's just a treat for gamers and I feel the same about RDR. So for me, I want more games that follow those frachise formulas. They aren't the simplified variety where graphics aren't a major concern of design, or simulating AI in peds, etc, just a game game!

Having the PC version just made the Modding segment more popular then it's ever been with the prior GTAs, I'd wager this as fact

Having the PC version just made the Modding segment more popular then it's ever been with the prior GTAs, I'd wager this as fact

Shows how much you know about GTA. IV modding is limited as hell, I know that from experience, whereas in GTA San Andreas the only aspect that people hadn't modified back when I was still modding the crap out of my game was the world limit.

Not to mention IV has a lot of junk / useless / piece of shit / rubbish files leftover from the console version, planned or leftover from GTA San Andreas. San Andreas was nice and clean, it had unused content but almost all of it was functional.

By the way:

As I said, 10 years worshipping Grand Theft Auto...

Most of the modding is vehicle centric, I doubt they can introduce complete new characters and storylines, what limitation barrier do you expect mod communities to overcome? Design your own take on GTA, as an independent developer, you may have luck in that regard, and bode well for a future in which the GTA type Open World either story or task or just plain crazy (a la Saints Row) gameplay is at your disposal

Rockstar already said that the idea of a Digital Sandbox fits what they're after at the end of the day, but the stories are the second most important factor, which is why GTA IV is the way it is, from what I come up with, RDR is also much the same way.

I've not modded based on earlier PC components and being a console gamer I make no bones about, I still bought them all for PC, and play on PC or laptop when they run OK, but the main thing I was saying above is that the PC Rage mods are the most impressive looking that I've seen, and making adjustments to those tools can aid any mods done for GTA V, so that is the main hope is it aids future modding in the short term (before new console tech) PC and consoles are likely to share those files you dread, but as I mentioned in the PC petition thread, RAGE and Euphoria are designed to maximize improvements that are still cross-platform. I think at the end of the day, this kind of argument from console and PC gamers results to an idea that the two platforms cannot peacefully co-exist, would you subscribe to that idea as well?

Most of the modding is vehicle centric, also more irrelevant bullshit that TUN3R never said but I like to pretend he did

Again, shows what you know.

Rockstar already said that the idea of a Digital Sandbox fits what they're after at the end of the day, but the stories are the second most important factor, which is why GTA IV is the way it is, from what I come up with, RDR is also much the same way.

What does RDR have to do with this? Hell what does Rockstar have to do with this? We were talking about modding. Yes you read a lot of random bullshit from those morons at GTAF, I get it, you can stop shoving it in my face now.

I've not modded based on earlier PC components and being a console gamer I make no bones about, I still bought them all for PC, and play on PC or laptop when they run OK, but the main thing I was saying above is that the PC Rage mods are the most impressive looking that I've seen

Once more proving that your experience with GTA is nowhere near as vast as you claim, and that you haven't even seen a fraction of the mods that fans have made for GTA III era games along time. Maybe you should spend less time worshipping GTA and more time playing it. Or just avoid it altogether, whatever.

, and making adjustments to those tools can aid any mods done for GTA V, so that is the main hope is it aids future modding in the short term

Miracle! For once you might actually have a valid point. I believe Rockstar sacrificed LA Noire and Max Payne in the hopes of advancing the development of GTA V while making some extra cash along the way. AKA GTA V will probably share some technical aspects or even gameplay features with Max Payne 3, therefore modding Max Payne 3 might help understand how GTA V will work in the future. Kudos.

(before new console tech) PC and consoles are likely to share those files you dread, but as I mentioned in the PC petition thread, RAGE and Euphoria are designed to maximize improvements that are still cross-platform. I think at the end of the day, this kind of argument from console and PC gamers results to an idea that the two platforms cannot peacefully co-exist, would you subscribe to that idea as well?

Yup. Unless Microsoft, Rockstar and every other anti-PC-gaming company go bankrupt or come to their senses, which probably won't happen 100 years from now. Not the second option at least.

I'm not a modder so much as been observing it as a gamer of GTA and trying some other odd games on the side, but you might want to put some proof to your own words by informing me and others about what you know, where is the breadth and scope recorded, per se??

Remember besides Sony coming to help Rockstar with GTA IV on PS3 (which I mentioned froze up constantly and worse and worse for me, prompting a re-purchase on Xbox360), there was 50 Million greenbacks paid from Microsoft to shore up the 360 with the DLC exclusive. Yes, I think you should be more upset with Microsoft's handing of Xbox console gaming versus their own Windows API; Direct X 10, 11, and dare I say, 12??

I will add that I'm reading a number of Maximum PC articles as of late, they are pretty rude about console gaming too, but they at least tip their hat to the idea of gaming with power on a budget, which in their estimation is accurate because a major gaming rig on PC is not cheap, it simply isn't

I'm not a modder so much as been observing it as a gamer of GTA and trying some other odd games on the side, but you might want to put some proof to your own words by informing me and others about what you know, where is the breadth and scope recorded, per se??

Proof regarding which part of what I said? There's a quote feature for a reason bro.

Remember besides Sony coming to help Rockstar with GTA IV on PS3 (which I mentioned froze up constantly and worse and worse for me, prompting a re-purchase on Xbox360), there was 50 Million greenbacks paid from Microsoft to shore up the 360 with the DLC exclusive. Yes, I think you should be more upset with Microsoft's handing of Xbox console gaming versus their own Windows API; Direct X 10, 11, and dare I say, 12??

Remember that I asked you for proof on that. Seeing as Rockstar was dealing with Microsoft at the time, that seems highly unlikely.

I will add that I'm reading a number of Maximum PC articles as of late, they are pretty rude about console gaming too, but they at least tip their hat to the idea of gaming with power on a budget, which in their estimation is accurate because a major gaming rig on PC is not cheap, it simply isn't

True. But you wouldn't need to spend more than $500 - $700 on a PC if developers optimized their games properly and if Microsoft even bothered to optimize their operating system.

Why is it that a piece of low budget crap like the Xbox 360 can run games at 60 FPS with only 512 MB of RAM, a triple-core 3.2 GHz CPU and an upgraded ATI X1800 GPU? You're probably iching to tell me "well duhz it's a different technolojy" well I'm ichning to tell you NO! It's not. They are all computers, all the parts inside the Xbox 360 game console exist in one form or another for personal computers as well.

Can't answer that? Well I can, the answer is very simple: because it's not slowed down by Windows.

The second most popular excuse the so called "gaming specialists" (console fanboys) tend to come up is "well yesh mister PC's are made to run a wide variety of programsh n' shit" oh and the Xbox isn't? You didn't get TV, wi-fi, radio, web browsing, etc etc etc since the Xbox 360 first launched? Please.

There are a handfull of games out there that work on Linux (maybe more, haven't toyed with it in quite some time). Try running some of them, see if you still need a 2000$ rig after that. Sure, games probably won't look so great on Linux, due to a lot of the software that PC games use being made specifically for Windows.

I'm not saying PC games should demand the same amount of resources as console games do, being able to combine different components does have it's drawbacks, but the system requirements that PC games have these days is just ridiculous, and they wouldn't have them if Microsoft and the game developers gave a shit.

Oh and like I said some time ago, PC's might be more expensive if you compare the initial costs to that of the console's, but try taking the following into ecuation:

-consoles break more often than PC's, and when a PC breaks you can usually just replace the broken component, not the whole thing.
-you can maintain and fix minor problems with your PC yourself. tinker with your Xbox 360 and see if Microsoft doesn't throw your warranty off the window.
-PC games are A LOT cheaper than console games, even more so if you're a sale hound on Steam.
-on the PC you don't risk getting banned from the network for god knows what reason, and be forced to buy a new one.
-there are more free games on PC than on consoles, and most of them are better ones.

True. But you wouldn't need to spend more than $500 - $700 on a PC if developers optimized their games properly and if Microsoft even bothered to optimize their operating system.

Why is it that a piece of low budget crap like the Xbox 360 can run games at 60 FPS with only 512 MB of RAM, a triple-core 3.2 GHz CPU and an upgraded ATI X1800 GPU? You're probably iching to tell me "well duhz it's a different technolojy" well I'm ichning to tell you NO! It's not. They are all computers, all the parts inside the Xbox 360 game console exist in one form or another for personal computers as well.

I do hope you know the answer to this, and I have a suspicion that if this argument was happening in reverse you'd be the first to pipe up and hammer out a response.

The 360 has maybe three hardware setups. They differ in the likes of hard drive space, cooling and so forth but generally no major architectural changes are made throughout a console's lifetime. This means it's easy for a developer to spend a lot of time examining that particular hardware's strengths, weaknesses, stability issues and potential, because the number of hardware variables is so minimal. When you compare to developing for PC, it's a different story altogether.

If I take a look at scan.co.uk (my computer parts vendor of choice) I have a selection of 9 or so socket 1155 (sandy bridge) processors. Compatible motherboard for this process are numerous, with 72 examples. You can be as terrible at maths as I am am and still work out that the number of combinations is pretty goddamned huge.

It's the same case when you assert that Microsoft should 'optimize their operating system' for who? On a case by case basis? it's part of what you sign up for when you enter into the realmof PC gaming. The other option is unfortunately, a much more closed system such as Apple's, or to buy into stuff like surface (which we all know isn't really what you'd want as a gamer)

I'd allllso like to make a slight chage to your version of events in which you blame windows for 'slowing down' hardware. Yes it's bloated and stupid and MS don't really give a shit about supporting gaming, but there's more:

Directx is a vast proportion of the reason games don't run at their full potential on windows machines. Directx is an antique. DirectX, or rather it's lack of alternatives, is the reason our PC's aren't blowing 360's and PS3's further back into the dirt than they already do. Given the nature of PC tinkerers around the world, and the fact that as an Operating system the community have Windows cracked wide open I'm amazed to see nobody has come up with an alternative.

True. But you wouldn't need to spend more than $500 - $700 on a PC if developers optimized their games properly and if Microsoft even bothered to optimize their operating system.

Why is it that a piece of low budget crap like the Xbox 360 can run games at 60 FPS with only 512 MB of RAM, a triple-core 3.2 GHz CPU and an upgraded ATI X1800 GPU? You're probably iching to tell me "well duhz it's a different technolojy" well I'm ichning to tell you NO! It's not. They are all computers, all the parts inside the Xbox 360 game console exist in one form or another for personal computers as well.

I do hope you know the answer to this, and I have a suspicion that if this argument was happening in reverse you'd be the first to pipe up and hammer out a response.

The 360 has maybe three hardware setups. They differ in the likes of hard drive space, cooling and so forth but generally no major architectural changes are made throughout a console's lifetime. This means it's easy for a developer to spend a lot of time examining that particular hardware's strengths, weaknesses, stability issues and potential, because the number of hardware variables is so minimal. When you compare to developing for PC, it's a different story altogether.

True. Which means developers are not only greedy, but also lazy.

If I take a look at scan.co.uk (my computer parts vendor of choice) I have a selection of 9 or so socket 1155 (sandy bridge) processors. Compatible motherboard for this process are numerous, with 72 examples. You can be as terrible at maths as I am am and still work out that the number of combinations is pretty goddamned huge.

Maybe, but the differences between the various models or versions of the components aren't as big as to call every single model "unique". The difference between a GeForce 510 and a geforce 590 isn't that great, the 590 is simply an upgraded version of the 510 (which probably costs just as much to manufacture, but I guess Nvidia employees gotta eat drive Rolls Royces too...). I seriously doubt the Xbox 360's components haven't been modified at all since the first 360 model.

Take indie game developers for example. Do you really think they tested their games on every component in existance and modified them accordingly? I doubt it. Yet, their games work for everyone... well except Terraria but that one uses XNA, I'm surprized it doesn't crash every two seconds.

It's the same case when you assert that Microsoft should 'optimize their operating system' for who? On a case by case basis? it's part of what you sign up for when you enter into the realmof PC gaming. The other option is unfortunately, a much more closed system such as Apple's, or to buy into stuff like surface (which we all know isn't really what you'd want as a gamer)

For their customers? The people that pay $$$ for it? Basically what you're saying is that it's perfectly ok for PC games to have problems, and that Microsoft and the game developers should keep it that way.

I'd allllso like to make a slight chage to your version of events in which you blame windows for 'slowing down' hardware. Yes it's bloated and stupid and MS don't really give a shit about supporting gaming, but there's more:

Directx is a vast proportion of the reason games don't run at their full potential on windows machines. Directx is an antique. DirectX, or rather it's lack of alternatives, is the reason our PC's aren't blowing 360's and PS3's further back into the dirt than they already do. Given the nature of PC tinkerers around the world, and the fact that as an Operating system the community have Windows cracked wide open I'm amazed to see nobody has come up with an alternative.

True. But you're saying that as if Microsoft isn't to blame.

Do you really think that game developers would make their games compatible with a DX alternative if someone were to create one? Most of them are in Microsoft's pocket ome way or another.

True. Which means developers are not only greedy, but also lazy.

I think the amount of times you've called developers lazy without any realization that shareholders and CEO's have them by the balls is absurd.

When a lowly game dev on 30 grand or whatever they make turns around to John Riccitiello and tells him that his big game release isn't going to be ready for another month because he wants to make sure the optimisation for 6 core AMD systems using a certain chipset and an Nvidia graphics card with low latency RAM, i guarantee you with no uncertainty that Mr. Riccitiello will get a technician to find him some figures, exclaim that it's 1.2% of the potential player base and tell him to get the game gone gold my midday.

Same thing with Microsoft.

The developers simply aren't as lazy as they think you are, and your blindness to the bigger picture is not to be commended.

Nvidia employees gotta eat drive Rolls Royces too

Google 'foxconn suicides' for more on computer component manufacturer working conditions. The only people living on anything above bread and fucking water at Nvidia are the scientists and the stupid motherfuckers in the boardrooms. Agaian, people who have no concern for that game developer 6 months from now who's working through his lunch to optimise for people just like you; in spite of what people (strangley not) unlike you are telling them.

But you're saying that as if Microsoft isn't to blame.

For protecting their investment? They aren't. It was more of a 'sit here and flap your arms or do something about it' statement.

Do you really think that game developers would make their games compatible with a DX alternative if someone were to create one?

Yes. Whether or not their CEO's and shareholders approved the scheme is another matter. This paradigm is what is making indie titles so popular as of late; the developers are real, tangible gamers who love to play and create fun stuff and they know the concerns of consumers on a first hand basis.

Take indie game developers for example. Do you really think they tested their games on every component in existance and modified them accordingly? I doubt it. Yet, their games work for everyone...

Indie games, due to their often low budget, tend to be less demanding on one's system. Imagine giving an independent dev 20mil to play with and make a AAA title without there being more than a few bugs to iron out.

True. Which means developers are not only greedy, but also lazy.

I think the amount of times you've called developers lazy without any realization that shareholders and CEO's have them by the balls is absurd.

When a lowly game dev on 30 grand or whatever they make turns around to John Riccitiello and tells him that his big game release isn't going to be ready for another month because he wants to make sure the optimisation for 6 core AMD systems using a certain chipset and an Nvidia graphics card with low latency RAM, i guarantee you with no uncertainty that Mr. Riccitiello will get a technician to find him some figures, exclaim that it's 1.2% of the potential player base and tell him to get the game gone gold my midday.

Same thing with Microsoft.

The developers simply aren't as lazy as they think you are, and your blindness to the bigger picture is not to be commended.

I doubt anybody is holding Rockstar's employees by the balls. I seriously doubt it. But it's not really my conscern, I pay for the product, I can complain. And when it comes to Rockstar and Microsoft, I have plenty of reasons to complain.

Basically what you're saying is I shouldn't expect the devs to do their jobs properly (which also involves optimization) because theit bosses are assholes? Well I've never had a stable job but I did have my fair share of asshole bosses and I don't think I ever expected the client to take the fall for that.

But fine! If it just can't be done then don't release the game on PC anymore! I'm A-OK with that.

Nvidia employees gotta eat drive Rolls Royces too

Google 'foxconn suicides' for more on computer component manufacturer working conditions. The only people living on anything above bread and fucking water at Nvidia are the scientists and the stupid motherfuckers in the boardrooms. Agaian, people who have no concern for that game developer 6 months from now who's working through his lunch to optimise for people just like you; in spite of what people (strangley not) unlike you are telling them.

Again, not my conscern. This crap isn't cheap, someone is profiting off it, that someone has to deliver.

But you're saying that as if Microsoft isn't to blame.

For protecting their investment? They aren't. It was more of a 'sit here and flap your arms or do something about it' statement.

Protecting their investment so they can dump more cash into the Xbox*

Do you really think that game developers would make their games compatible with a DX alternative if someone were to create one?

Yes. Whether or not their CEO's and shareholders approved the scheme is another matter. This paradigm is what is making indie titles so popular as of late; the developers are real, tangible gamers who love to play and create fun stuff and they know the concerns of consumers on a first hand basis.

In a fantasy world, maybe.

Take indie game developers for example. Do you really think they tested their games on every component in existance and modified them accordingly? I doubt it. Yet, their games work for everyone...

Indie games, due to their often low budget, tend to be less demanding on one's system. Imagine giving an independent dev 20mil to play with and make a AAA title without there being more than a few bugs to iron out.

Yes, because they are well optimized. Something big time developers can't be bothered to do.

Take Worms Revolution for example. It has the look and feel of an indie game but somehow I can't run it at maximum frame rate...

Well I've never had a stable job but I did have my fair share of asshole bosses and I don't think I ever expected the client to take the fall for that.

There's a difference between an asshole boss and a boss who actively expects you to do things that they themselves inhibit you from doing (though these categories aren't mutually exclusive). I experience it 5 days a week.

This crap isn't cheap, someone is profiting off it, that someone has to deliver.

They are delivering. To shareholders. That's their primary concern; how much of that comprises delivering a well optimized game changes on a case by case basis.

Yes, because they are well optimized. Something big time developers can't be bothered to do.

Circular logic is circular. Also flawed. You just said 'nope' and expected it to pass as an argument there.

Protecting their investment so they can dump more cash into the Xbox*

'Tis what I was getting at.

In a fantasy world, maybe.

Now you're being obtuse.

Take Worms Revolution for example. It has the look and feel of an indie game but somehow I can't run it at maximum frame rate...

Wouldn't be surprised if this game is built off the previous 'modern' worms titles such as reloaded, golf and whatnot and thus has alot of shit chugging away in the background that they don't really need. It's indicative of a low budget and fast turnaround task given by the guys upstairs.

Something big time developers can't be bothered to do.

Refer to my aforementioned arguments. Then refute them with no contrary points other than 'nope' again.

Well I've never had a stable job but I did have my fair share of asshole bosses and I don't think I ever expected the client to take the fall for that.

There's a difference between an asshole boss and a boss who actively expects you to do things that they themselves inhibit you from doing (though these categories aren't mutually exclusive). I experience it 5 days a week.

Even better.

This crap isn't cheap, someone is profiting off it, that someone has to deliver.

They are delivering. To shareholders. That's their primary concern; how much of that comprises delivering a well optimized game changes on a case by case basis.

Like I give a fuck about shareholders, you shouldn't ether. Hey Llama I'm curious, have you ever filed a complaint or asked for a refund in your life? Or do you just go like "meh" if you buy a toaster and realize it doesn't make toast?

Yes, because they are well optimized. Something big time developers can't be bothered to do.

I'm out of arguments.

I was hours ago, you win this round, aquaman..

Protecting their investment so they can dump more cash into the Xbox*

'Tis what I was getting at.

As was I. The difference is I'm not treating it as a good thing.

In a fantasy world, maybe.

Now you're being obtuse.

Cry me a river.

Take Worms Revolution for example. It has the look and feel of an indie game but somehow I can't run it at maximum frame rate...

Wouldn't be surprised if this game is built off the previous 'modern' worms titles such as reloaded, golf and whatnot and thus has alot of shit chugging away in the background that they don't really need. It's indicative of a low budget and fast turnaround task given by the guys upstairs.

And normally you'd be correct, but for once they actually built a game from strach, if we don't take planning and desgin into consideration. Though there's never been much of that in Worms games...

Something big time developers can't be bothered to do.

Really, I'm out of arguments.

Aquaman, you truly have earned your place as my nemesis!